Benjamin, thank you so much for your honest (and not hostile!) reply.
Here's how naive I am...I voted for Bush and have no clue about those other guys y'all are talking about (Alex or Eric). Like I said before, I'm just an average gal, who fell upon this interesting site...thanks for leading me to new info.
Not sayin' I won't vote major party again, but at least I have more infomation to make my decision with.
Ok so there is another Christian on here. Nice.
This touches on slavery as well.
1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."
Last edited by lowercasepeople on Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:31 pm
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Quote:
"I'm young in my Christian walk"
This statement in itself expresses linear thinking. People who are Christian may see us as hostile, or whatever but they have to realise that they come across as ignorant, and obnoxious to people that aren't. I'm told I take things out of context, but if anything is taken out of context people can provide evidence for correct context.
I have yet to see a Christian forum that doesn't censor the Bible. Christians in general just cannot accept the racist, slavery promoting, contradicting religion they promote! If I take things out of context then people are more than welcome to show the context they should be taken in.
Promotion of Christianity is obviously offensive to me, but I at least give more respect to Christians than any Christian forum would afford me.
This isn't directed at anyone in particular and the quote may as well be from any Christian.
In their constant quest to discredit Christianity, skeptics have attacked the character of many figures in the Bible. Their most audacious slanders, however, are directed toward Jesus Christ and His divine nature. One such assault attempts to attribute undesirable human characteristics, like racism, to Jesus. Mark 7:24-30 and Matthew 15:21-28 record the story of a Gentile Syrophoenician woman coming to Jesus and begging Him to heal her daughter, who was possessed by a demon. Jesus’ response, at first glance, seems to be a racial slur: “And he said unto her, ‘Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs’ ” (Mark 7:27).
In order to understand Jesus’ response, one must understand a history of the relationship between God and the nation of Israel, and between Israel and her neighbors. The Bible records that Israel, as God’s chosen people, had received His commands and His laws through special revelation: “And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people” (Leviticus 26:12). “For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy 7:6). The Israelites were ordered from the beginning not to follow the people around them, who had long departed from the commands of God. In Leviticus, the Lord commanded: “And ye shall not walk in the customs of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they did all these things, and therefore I abhorred them” (20:23). Israel was God’s chosen nation, and the peoples around them were considered infidels because of their disobedience to God’s commands.
From biblical evidence, it appears that the expression “dog” was a Jewish idiomatic expression for one who was a worker of evil, or someone held in contempt. As the psalmist said: “For dogs have compassed me: A company of evildoers has enclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet” (22:16). Thus, some Jews would have considered, and even called, the other peoples around them “dogs” because of their estrangement from God, caused by their unfaithfulness to His commands. Matthew records that, at first, Jesus gave the woman no response, but when urged by His disciples, He stated His mission to them and therefore His reason for ignoring her: “I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24). Because of the woman’s persistence, Jesus finally acquiesced and responded to her, using idiomatic language to explain that His purpose was to offer salvation to the Jews. The “bread” symbolized the Gospel (cf. John 6:32-58), the “children” symbolized the Jews (John 8:39), and the “dogs” idiomatically referred to those outside of God’s chosen people. Jesus’ mission was to preach to the nation of Israel, as Paul stated: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16). Jesus, then, was not being racist toward the Syrophoenician woman; rather, He simply was restating to her, this time in idiomatic language, what He previously had affirmed to His disciples. Notice that in His response to the woman, Jesus said, “Let the children first be filled,” implying that eventually the Gentiles would receive the Gospel, but that His mission was to give God’s chosen people the first chance at redemption under the new covenant.
Was Jesus advocating racism in His dealings with the Gentile woman? No, He was simply using figurative language to say that His initial mission was to the Jews. Her response was one of intelligence and discernment, returning Jesus’ idiomatic expressions and saying, to put it in contemporary language, “I’ll take what I can get.” Because His focus was on convincing the Jews, Jesus was under no obligation to heal this woman’s daughter. However, Jesus used the opportunity to teach his disciples that “God is no respecter of persons…” (Acts 10:34).
People who are Christian may see us as hostile, or whatever but they have to realise that they come across as ignorant, and obnoxious to people that aren't.
Yes, well, to the newcomer reading posts on here for the first time, y'all can sound pretty ignorant in your hostility...and that hostility can be pretty obnoxious as well. Not trying to insult, just trying to make an honest observation. I'm more than willing to admit where my weaknesses and character flaws are...and I have spoken with more than a few Christians who do not walk in peace, who pass judgement easily, and all of those traits you're speaking of. But, I think you can select any group of people and find the same thing. That is a human flaw, not a flaw in Christ.
madthumbs wrote:
Christians in general just cannot accept the racist, slavery promoting, contradicting religion they promote! If I take things out of context then people are more than welcome to show the context they should be taken in.
I am genuinely interested in these contradictions, because, as I understand it, God is perfect and cannot break His promise nor can He contradict Himself. So, I'm seriously interested in where these contradictions are, so that I can study them and figure this out for myself. I understand that, you, Thumbs, are much more well versed in the Bible than I am, so perhaps you would be willing to point them out to me.
madthumbs wrote:
Promotion of Christianity is obviously offensive to me, but I at least give more respect to Christians than any Christian forum would afford me.
I find it interesting that you find Christianity offensive, but I haven't seen anything where you've been so offended by Judaism, Satanism, or any of the other "ism" represented here. And, this is the first forum like this I've ever tried to be a part of, so I have no idea what Christian forums are like.
And to lowercasepeople, nice to meet you and thank you for the post from Zack Smith. I know some here may see it as looking for an excuse, but I truly feel that anyone can take pieces of the Bible and misapply them (or use them out of context).
Oh yeah, speaking of which, Thumbs...as far as using things out of context...I think I addressed that with this very subject (the whole Matthew passage about the woman and the dogs and whatnot) a while back. I don't think you ever got around to addressing that, but I think we've beat that one to death.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:00 pm
Gunther
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 358 Location: You Already Know Where I Am!!!
Welcome beloved... let us love one another... for everyone that loveth is born of god and knoweth him!!!
I was a musician in church for a better part of half my life, my dad was a minister, my whole family is still heavily involved with the church... but I couldn't find what so many ppl spoke about... and that was a personal relationship... how do you define a personal relationship with a killer-God in the old testament, and a God that makes it clear that he has a chosen ppl and it's not you... in the new testament.
Have you ever heard of the Mystery religion, the creation of the different religions that we now know is ripping the world apart... and has simply become a tool for corrupt governments... I think for anyone to really come to an understanding of a being higher than them must come to know the history... the bible speaks of history, but no preacher would go into the history of the bible... When, where, how and by who it was written!!!
Then finally for a religion to advocate the laws of the land to be God's has simply spun it from obey the laws of nature...
If and when in your awakening you do find time I would suggest you go into ancient religions... study them and you'll be amazed at what the budhists, hindu's believed long before the bible was even written... and how many religions are based on that, but what will become clear to you is the mind control that it has you have over yourself... there's no such thing as sin, there was no jesus, and there'll be no returning... Revelations is a plan not a prophesy...
Have you heard of Astro-Theology... but then again I know how the church is against astrology : I wonder why that is... when the allegory in the bible is nothing other than astrology "esoterically speaking"!!!
I'm not saying I do not believe in a creator, what I am saying is that its not the god in any religious bible, and if you say christianity is not a religion its a way of life... then I must remind you that any other religion says the same... while standing fast against other religions as arc-enemies!!!
This is a tool that's been used to divide and conquer the individual minds of the masses... and if you can't see the fruits of this now then the mind-control is serving it's purpose...
if you want a religion start your own one...
mine goes like this...
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...
Love thy neighbour as yourself... and let your conscious be your guide!!!
It's not out there... it's within each and every human!!!
Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:02 pm
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Quote:
y'all can sound pretty ignorant in your hostility...and that hostility can be pretty obnoxious as well.
Don't mistake ignorance with confidence. I've already been in your position and knew the Bible better. Point taken on how it may appear to Bible N00bs though.
Quote:
I have spoken with more than a few Christians who do not walk in peace
Israel was not acquired through peace (according to the Bible), and was not re-acquired by peace. Sure David was not allowed to build the temple because of bloodshed, but remember that that bloodshed was a requisite.
Quote:
I'm seriously interested in where these contradictions are, so that I can study them and figure this out for myself.
I find it interesting that you find Christianity offensive
I find it interesting that people don't. It is racist, slavery endorsing, and the cause of most strife in the world. Seriously.. you racist, pro -slave owners piss me off. You come here to our forum and try to turn it into a racist white supremecist bullshit place for you to spread your hate propaganda. Why wouldn't I find it offensive? I'm already being accused of being a Nazi white supremecist which I hate.
Quote:
I know some here may see it as looking for an excuse, but I truly feel that anyone can take pieces of the Bible and misapply them (or use them out of context).
If any Bible is taken out of context; you would have NO problem demonstrating that misuse of context. Have I censored you? Have I censored the Bible? Show us how the Bible is used out of context if that's what you alledge! If anything I believe I've affirmed my usage of it through context so far.
Quote:
I think I addressed that with this very subject (the whole Matthew passage about the woman and the dogs and whatnot) a while back. I don't think you ever got around to addressing that, but I think we've beat that one to death
Even when I was a Bible believer; I did not take that out of context. You're making excuses for Jesus (the Biblical one). Only ignorant Christians would agree with you on this.. any atheists care to speak up? ( I could be wrong ). If you believe in the Bible you are racist. If you believe in the Bible and don't know it's racist then you don't really believe in it; you believe what you know of it. It is nonsense to believe in something you are lacking knowledge of.
Suppose I saw a white supremecist site that appeared to me to be exposing Zionism and the fallacies of the Bible. Suppose I didn't know it was a Supremacist site. Should I join and spam everyone I know about the site? This is akin to what Christians do. They find a religion that makes some sense.. but they never really investigate it. They spam this religion all over without realizing it promotes hate and slavery. When confronted with the facts; they deny and obfuscate.
Quit acting out of fear of eternal damnation!
If there is a fair, loving, and just God; don't you think he/ she would want you to be FAIR and JUST? Not Racist and Slavery endorsing?
Umm, i'm pretty sure we proved that Christian is not racist or slave endorsing but w/e. Any if it is racist how does that make us white supremecists? I am predominatley latin... Anyways the first Christians were of middle eastern decent.
Don't mistake ignorance with confidence. I've already been in your position and knew the Bible better. Point taken on how it may appear to Bible N00bs though.
Thank you for understanding.
madthumbs wrote:
Quote:
I have spoken with more than a few Christians who do not walk in peace
Israel was not acquired through peace (according to the Bible), and was not re-acquired by peace. Sure David was not allowed to build the temple because of bloodshed, but remember that that bloodshed was a requisite.
That wasn't exactly what I was talking about. I was actually referring to "Christians" who support violent demonstrations against abortion, "Christians" who support the whole "kill'em all and let God sort'em out," philosophy, things like that. I don't believe that was in Christ's teachings. But again, I defer to you to point out any scripture to the contrary.
madthumbs wrote:
Quote:
I'm seriously interested in where these contradictions are, so that I can study them and figure this out for myself.
I checked out that page, and while I didn't check on every passage, I didn't find anything in the ones I did that supported what you were trying to say. I mean, it seems to me when you take anything out of context it can be warped. I hate to beat a dead drum, but when I read what surrounds those verses, I hear something different than what you're implying by boldfacing certain parts. I'm trying to be open-minded, and I'm also trying to be fair. I've heard some of the things discussed on this site for years, so it's not that I automatically doubt what you're saying. I guess it'll just take more concrete evidence for me to stray from the way my heart tells me to think. And, yes, I know that's very girly of me...and I'm sure many of you feel like that's the problem...using emotion over intellect is probably how you see it. Maybe it is, maybe I am "programmed"...guess somebody's done a good job, eh?
madthumbs wrote:
Seriously.. you racist, pro -slave owners piss me off. You come here to our forum and try to turn it into a racist white supremecist bullshit place for you to spread your hate propaganda. Why wouldn't I find it offensive? I'm already being accused of being a Nazi white supremecist which I hate.
Whoa! Whoa! Whooooa, there Nelly! Hold the phone, dude. How did I become a pro-slave owner?! (Incidentally, my grandfather is Mexican and I go to a predominantly black non-denominational Christian church) Seriously, slow your roll, man. I'm not that gal. I totally admit to being raised in a racist area, by somewhat racist parents (closet racists), and having to fight those prejudices from becoming part of my make-up. Trust me, I don't like being called a white supremecist any more than you do. So, perhaps we should apply a little of that ol' Golden Rule here. I am so not trying to spread hate propaganda, nor am I trying to prevoke anyone. Thumbs, I'm seriously perplexed by how someone (by your own admission) who was a Bible carryin' Christian could go to such a polar opposite and volatile way of thinking in such a short period of time. What happened? How did happen? I swear I'm not trying to be nosey, I'm just trying to understand.
madthumbs wrote:
If any Bible is taken out of context; you would have NO problem demonstrating that misuse of context. Have I censored you? Have I censored the Bible? Show us how the Bible is used out of context if that's what you alledge! If anything I believe I've affirmed my usage of it through context so far.
Quote:
Galatians 5:2
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, <b>Christ shall profit you nothing.</b>
Okay, perfect example. Galations 5:1 says, "We have freedom now, because Christ made us free. So, stand strong. Do not change and go back into the slavery of the law."
Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds like, don't get all caught up in that business...y'all know The Way. Too simple?
madthumbs wrote:
Only ignorant Christians would agree with you on this
Now, you've not only insulted me, but you insulted lowercasepeople. Why all the insults?
madthumbs wrote:
If you believe in the Bible you are racist.
No, I'm not.
madthumbs wrote:
If you believe in the Bible and don't know it's racist then you don't really believe in it; you believe what you know of it. It is nonsense to believe in something you are lacking knowledge of....
...Quit acting out of fear of eternal damnation!
Okay, first of all, my spiritual experience with Jesus Christ is very personal. You're right though, it doesn't make sense to say that you believe in something you don't know anything about. I know what I have gone through, what I have seen, and what I have learned thus far. I am making an honest attempt to learn more about the history of my personal Savior. More importantly, I am so not actiing out of fear. I have in the past, so I know what you're talking about. For the first time in my life, I am acting purely out of gratitude.
madthumbs wrote:
If there is a fair, loving, and just God; don't you think he/ she would want you to be FAIR and JUST? Not Racist and Slavery endorsing?
I absolutely think that. Again, please refer me to more passages. (I only ask for more 'cause I'm still not buyin' the one we've already covered)
Thanks, and again, Thumbs, I have to wonder how and why you've made this complete 180 in your belief system. Or have I misinterpreted what I've read?
Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:00 pm
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Don't be disinfo! You contest that I'm taking verses out of context. If I am; you'd have NO PROBLEM showing the context, but you don't. Are you a lazy Christian or do the verses stand?
Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:48 am
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
More racist favor of Israel:
Quote:
Exodus 12:29 29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
Quote:
Exodus 20:5 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Quote:
Numbers 21:1-3 And when king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south, heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies; then he fought against Israel, and took some of them prisoners. 2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities. 3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Quote:
Numbers 21:31 - 22:1 31 Thus Israel dwelt in the land of the Amorites. 32 And Moses sent to spy out Jaazer, and they took the villages thereof, and drove out the Amorites that were there. 33 And they turned and went up by the way of Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan went out against them, he, and all his people, to the battle at Edrei. 34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. 35 So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 3:3-6 3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. 4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: 17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Well the scriptures can be interpreted in many ways, depending on who is doing the interperting.
There are many sects in christianity that do not share the same interpretation of the scriptures. So we must seek to understand and seek their true meaning, and the end we will have full understanding of it.
So inorder to accomplish this, one must read the entire bible .
Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:41 pm
alexclaton
Joined: 05 Mar 2006 Posts: 817 Location: Hell on earth
jesus is a symbol...
however if he was real and all that torture is true then he was one hell of a sexual intercourse masocist
Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:29 am
Opiate
Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Posts: 243 Location: False Apostle Rebuttal below::READ IT
Quote:
I've already been in your position and knew the Bible better. Point taken on how it may appear to Bible N00bs though.
I dont know how you can honestly make that statement with all due respect, I will be posting my rebuttal I told you I was working on regarding the false apostle, some of the things brought out were just plain elementary and deceptive.
