Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 820 Location: Australia
no.
god does not have a 'chosen people'.
we're all people.
can you do an interview with god and verify this claim?
if i write a book and write of god saying my people are 'the chosen'..
and then point to the book i wrote as proof that my people are 'the chosen'
and read from it each week in a dress..
will you join my religion?
the laws were made by people
the laws are being 'fulfilled' by people.
Jesus is the God of the Torah: the God of Judaism! Christianity is simply a denomination or cult branch of Judaism!
You are essentially correct. But I still think it is best to include other Christ figures within the scope of 'Christ'ianity. One who worships Herecles is technically a Christian. One who worships Mithras is technically a Christian. Jesus worship is a sub-group of Christianity. I am not so sure that the mythical Jesus is completely made up of only Jewish messianic prophecies, however.
Jews are people who worship God and as the bible says in the New Testament we must go through Christ to get to God. Thats why they are called 'Christ'ians. People who worship hercules or mithras are worshipping people who are mythical and are what people portray as being Christlike. but they arent christ nor are they christians because they worship them. but how do we know that christ wasnt as mythical as hercules or mithras? Christianity today is seen as a bunch of hypocrites getting together and worshipping something thats not there. but i tell you, what i have expeirienced through the past 2 years didnt happen by the grace of hercules. God is real, He is the Way the Truth and the Life. my mom has dived into the Word of God reading her bible everyday. she has given her life to God and in return has recieved many blessings. a future husband that God told her about, God told her to put away 2000 dollars, she didnt know why but did it anyways and that was exactly the increase in her taxes and she had enough money to pay it off. I hear God, and so does she. He is Real and this whole world doesnt just exist. i dont care what any of yall have to say about this nor will i be coming back to check.
Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:18 pm
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
So the god that promotes racial genocide, infant genital mutilation, female oppression, rape, slavery, etc.. is the one true loving God that we must all worship and love to save our souls from eternal damnation? O'Rly?
Jews are people who worship God and as the bible says in the New Testament we must go through Christ to get to God. Thats why they are called 'Christ'ians. People who worship hercules or mithras are worshipping people who are mythical and are what people portray as being Christlike. but they arent christ nor are they christians because they worship them. but how do we know that christ wasnt as mythical as hercules or mithras? Christianity today is seen as a bunch of hypocrites getting together and worshipping something thats not there. but i tell you, what i have expeirienced through the past 2 years didnt happen by the grace of hercules. God is real, He is the Way the Truth and the Life. my mom has dived into the Word of God reading her bible everyday. she has given her life to God and in return has recieved many blessings. a future husband that God told her about, God told her to put away 2000 dollars, she didnt know why but did it anyways and that was exactly the increase in her taxes and she had enough money to pay it off. I hear God, and so does she. He is Real and this whole world doesnt just exist. i dont care what any of yall have to say about this nor will i be coming back to check.
Has it ever occurred that the voice talking to your heads might just be your conscious. Just a thought because we all have our own experiences that only we can trust in. However psychic experiences can occur to the person without the help of a god. I am agnostic and have had similar experiences to your mother. I don't credit a god for doing it just my instinct alone. Why not just grab the good messages of the Bible as oppose to saying its the word of some god. You should know the bible was written by men and they didn't always have good intentions with their message
Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:56 pm
postcardsfrompalestine
Joined: 05 Sep 2006 Posts: 1737 Location: It means good luck - a chinese symbol
voice in your head
I guess if God was really talking to you and your mother - He might have said - Taxes are a fraud and you don't have to pay them.
Anyway if you dared to read the gnostic Gospels and John Allegro's work on the dead sea scrolls you would realize the truth about your so called God. But people don't read anymore.
I also think that bible also said
17th chapter of Luke
The Kingdom of god is within man.
Well said and probably one of the most important messages for Christians to grab. Then again some of them only like to pick and choose the quote that suits them.
Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:19 pm
postcardsfrompalestine
Joined: 05 Sep 2006 Posts: 1737 Location: It means good luck - a chinese symbol
to me
I guess to me that it is interesting in that the battle over salvation through the clergy of the church " descendants of Peter" or salvation through ones self. The whole step of adding another to talk to god for you. This is the battle of the gnostics' also known as heretics. To be a Christian is to miss the whole point of what the Christos said. Anyway I guess people need to follow their own path, where ever it leads them.
Reminds me of a David Icke story.
A women used to cut off the corners of her easter Ham every year and until her Husband asked her why she did it. She didn't know why, but her mother had done so and so she followed. Her husband told her to call her mother and find out why the Mother cut the corners of the Ham off. So she called and asked her mother. Her Mother replied because my cooking pan was to small for the ham to fit.
This sums up Christians and other religions to me. People are so busy Believing that they never bothered to ask the questions about why they believe what they believe. Anyway John Allegro did some great work explaining where all these religions come from and It explains why they cut the corners off the ham every year.
from my observations: it seems like this post jumps to some pretty far out conclusions based on a couple lines mostly from the King James Version of the Bible. Old English. and then it switches to referencing to a more modern english version of the Bible to justify another claim. why the switches? and why focus on one spoken sentence by Jesus when compared with His whole life verified by Josephus and many other historians and even the gospels themselves? when we look at Jesus' life....who was it he hung out with? the religious stuck ups? no. He preached against them! but most of the time Jesus Christ hung out with the nobodies in that society. the lepers, the demon posessed, the tax collectors, women, social outcasts and 'sinners.' ....about the Christian 'religion' itself? yeah...Christians are messed up a lot of times. why? because we're human beings. we mess up. does that disprove what Christ said and lived? no...i don't think so. and look up some amazing Christians like William Wilberforce....George Mueller...William Tyndale...Bob Pierce.....Billy Graham...Jim Elliott...Corrie Ten Boom....etc... anyways thats my thoughts so far.
Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:24 pm
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Hi R3D,
We tend to care more about information here than personal opinion. Please show how the switches make a difference if you're going to bring them up. Racism permeates the Old Testament (not opinion), the New Testament has "I did not come to destroy the law or the prophets" (not opinion). Any "amazing" Christians promoted racism, slavery, genocide, rape, female oppression, witch hunts, etc (not opinion). These aren't just cult practices: they're taught in the Bible as acceptable (not opinion).
Wanna know what happened the last time someone harped on me for using another translation calling it a filthy rag? I ended up researching the accusations against it and found them to be total bunk!
hey...im a linguistics major. i look critically at language and words. i don't really understand your last paragraph....but i wasn't trying to harp on you. i was merely wondering why you did it. does it make a difference which version of the Bible use? at least linguistically....i would say yes. there were different methods of translating from the greek, hebrew and aramaic texts. and there are differences in connotations between 'Thou shalt' and 'You should.' differences in how we percieve and form our opinion of the text based on the words that are used. so i just thought it was interesting that you switched versions and was wondering if there was any significance.
i am also curious to see the facts about ''amazing' christians' that promoted racism, slavery, genocide, rape, female oppression, witch hunts...etc.
and where there is racism in the old testament: specific passages/context.
and where they are taught as acceptable...
if we are focusing on facts....then i need specific instances and their contexts to be accurate.
....oh...did you mean that person was calling the King James version a dirty rag? i think i know why...if that's what you were referring to.
>i copied this from Biblegateway.com so i wouldn't mistype anything:
James 2 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
James 2
Favoritism Forbidden
1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[b] also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
>Hebrews 13
1Keep on loving each other as brothers. 2Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. 3Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."[a] 6So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"[b]
7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
>1 Timothy 3-6
specifically: 3:10
>the book of Ephesians.
2:11
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
and....i would encourage you to look into the life of william wilberforce
>http://www.brycchancarey.com/abolition/wilberforce.htm
were there Christians that didn't do anything to help slaves? that is most definitely a sad yes!
were there Christians that owned slaves? again a sad yes.
i am not saying that Christians are perfect.
I AM saying that Christians, true Christians, who truly Love God with all their heart, soul, might, and MIND ; and love their neighbor as themselves: these are the people who realize their own imperfections and yet try to overcome them and do good.
Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:20 pm
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Lets just say, I'm a little bitter for having to learn the KJV along with the NKJV. The KJV has crazy spellings for words (and even has the same word differently spelled from OT to NT. It wasn't as easy to read either. This guy made more work for me in my studies because I researched and found some websites that were making incredible claims. When I finally got around to verifying the claims: I found the websites to be incredibly inaccurate and dishonest regarding the NKJV (link in previous post).
If I switched versions, it wasn't intentional. I'm running a new OS, and the Bible software I'm used to tends to crash this OS when run through WINE. I probably used what I found online. My attitude now when people complain about translations is: show me how it makes a difference or don't bring it up. Most often when people complain about the translation: they have no valid point, and are just filling the forum with nonsense.
Exodus 21:7-10 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Rape:
Deutoronomy 21: 11And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
A manual was issued by the Catholic Church for identifying witches. The killing is Biblically called for, and was performed by the Church.
Quote:
I AM saying that Christians, true Christians, who truly Love God with all their heart, soul, might, and MIND ; and love their neighbor as themselves: these are the people who realize their own imperfections and yet try to overcome them and do good.
Is what you say more authoritative than what the Bible says? lol Did you ignore that "neighbor" is an ambiguous legal loophole?
no...i am not saying my authority is greater than the Bible.
in respect to 'neighbor' bring a loophole:
(NIV)
Luke 10: 25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
you probably already know that the Jews and Samaritans didn't like each other [to put it very lightly]. they hated each other and didn't even want there shadows to touch each others [kinda like the untouchables class in india]. i think it makes it pretty clear who your neighbors are supposed to be and what loving them as yourself is supposed to be. and also a section from the old testament:
(NIV)
Leviticus 19:
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.
3 " 'Each of you must respect his mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the LORD your God.
4 " 'Do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. I am the LORD your God.
5 " 'When you sacrifice a fellowship offering [a] to the LORD, sacrifice it in such a way that it will be accepted on your behalf. 6 It shall be eaten on the day you sacrifice it or on the next day; anything left over until the third day must be burned up. 7 If any of it is eaten on the third day, it is impure and will not be accepted. 8 Whoever eats it will be held responsible because he has desecrated what is holy to the LORD; that person must be cut off from his people.
9 " 'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.
11 " 'Do not steal.
" 'Do not lie.
" 'Do not deceive one another.
12 " 'Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
13 " 'Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him.
" 'Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.
14 " 'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.
15 " 'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.
16 " 'Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
" 'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am the LORD.
17 " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
20 " 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.
23 " 'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. [b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden [c] ; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.
26 " 'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
" 'Do not practice divination or sorcery.
27 " 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 " 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.
29 " 'Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.
30 " 'Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD.
31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
32 " 'Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
35 " 'Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. 36 Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah [d] and an honest hin. [e] I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.
37 " 'Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the LORD.' "
and regarding the law
Mark12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
....and this is the rest of your quote about the law and the prophets.
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]
Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
but yeah....i will look at your other things. i am really busy with work and everything...but before my next reply i'll read them.
Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:13 am
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8599 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Yep, even Jesus left the term ambiguous not defining it. You didn't need to publish the whole Bible to show that.
