Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8235 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Jesus gives slavery thumbs up!
Exodus 21:28-32 28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. 29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. 30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him. 31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him. 32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
Exodus 21:7-10 7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. 8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. 9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. 10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Exodus 21:20-21 20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Proverbs 29:19 19 A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer.
Leviticus 25:44-46 44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Colossians 3:22 22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Titus 2:9 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Deuteronomy 20:13-14 13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: 14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
1 Peter 2:18 18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
Servant:
Strongs's Data wrote:
oiketes {oy-ket'-ace}
Meaning: 1) one who lives in the same house as another, spoken of all who are under the authority of one and the same householder 1a) a servant, a domestic
Origin: from 3611;; n m
Usage: AV - servant 4, household servant 1; 5
froward:
Strongs's Data wrote:
skolios {skol-ee-os'}
Meaning: 1) crooked, curved 2) metaph. 2a) perverse, wicked 2b) unfair, surly, froward
Origin: from the base of 4628; TDNT - 7:403,1046; adj
Usage: AV - crooked 2, untoward 1, froward 1; 4
Ephesians 6:5 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
To be fair, I think all the quotes you have are from the Old Testament, and can't be attributed to Jesus unless we assume that he approved of the Old Testament as it is.
Considering that the OT was written mostly by Rabbis and attributed to prophets, and that slavery was a matter of fact in those times, it's not surprising to see such passages.
As for Jesus, very little of what he says is actually in the New Testament. Christianity is a religion based on the divinity of Jesus, not the religion Jesus taught.
Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:35 am
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8235 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Collosians, 1 Peter, Ephesians, and Titus
are all New Testament.
and
Matthew 5:17 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
woops. but still, most of the NT is written by Paul, who, let's face it, changed Christ's message into a Christ worshipping religion.
The quote from the gospels (Mathew) is the is the only quote above that can be attributed to Jesus, and it has him fulfil the Law, not destroy it. But the original law isn't necessarily what the Rabbis taught and not everything that becomes the OT, since Jesus taught against the Rabbis and the changes they brought.
Having said that, it's probably better to title this thread as 'the Bible' or 'Christianity' allows slavery, not 'Jesus'.
But also having said that, Christ didn't outlaw or speak about slavery, a practice that was common in his time.
Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:25 am
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8235 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Is it wise to make up who Jesus is, and have people you witness to look for him in the Bible?
Yes... we are discussing the Jesus of the Bible; not Jesus the mexican immigrant, or Jesus in people's imaginations. Why add to the 30,000+ denominations by making up your own Jesus? Why not just point to The Creator which can be demonstrated instead of attributing him to a character in a racist slavery endorsing obviously flawed book?
Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:57 am
Opiate
Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Posts: 243 Location: False Apostle Rebuttal below::READ IT
So I guess all the Americans that have house "servants" promote slavery too. Maids especially? From what I know, the "slaves" of those times were not how many understood the word "slave" during the early times of this nation. The Hebrew slaves in the OT were actually taken care of and released after 6 years. During the time of his servitude the Hebrew slave was to be treated as a hired laborer. (Ex 21:2; Le 25:10; De 15:12) Some of them would even sell themselves into "slavery" (which did not mean forced labor at all) rather it was making oneself an owner of another, for work and money.
Also in the case of misteating them, if for example a slave was killed by a beating (as in many cases in our American history) the owner would be put to death also. If the owner hurt the "slave" and "ruined" his eye or tooth or any part of the body, the owner would be done likewise as part of the Law. (Ex 21:20, 21, 26, 27; Le 24:17)
I'd rather have been a slave under that Law than under the more recent ones in History.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:06 pm
Sponsor
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8235 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
I'll have to ask my boy Flava Flav if he beats his house servants, and if he bought them or he pays them.
Opiate wrote:
The Hebrew slaves in the OT were actually taken care of and released after 6 years.
Yes, there was a double standard for Hebrew slaves. Thanks for pointing out that racism.
Quote:
Some of them would even sell themselves into "slavery" (which did not mean forced labor at all) rather it was making oneself an owner of another, for work and money.
Like when Joseph caused Egyptians to sell themselves to the King of Egypt for food to SURVIVE!
Opiate wrote:
I'd rather have been a slave under that Law than under the more recent ones in History.
I'd rather be a servant under todays law than a servant under that law.
Last edited by madthumbs on Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:22 pm
Opiate
Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Posts: 243 Location: False Apostle Rebuttal below::READ IT
I am almost positive that alot of the laws in the old testament have been tampered with. Jesus promotes love for all mankind not slavery.
Also Deuteronomy 23:15-16, requires a Jew to protect a runaway slave, and to not return him/her to their owner
Is it wise to make up who Jesus is, and have people you witness to look for him in the Bible?
Yes... we are discussing the Jesus of the Bible; not Jesus the mexican immigrant, or Jesus in people's imaginations. Why add to the 30,000+ denominations by making up your own Jesus? Why not just point to The Creator which can be demonstrated instead of attributing him to a character in a racist slavery endorsing obviously flawed book?
I'm not adding to the denominations, and am not saying what Jesus is, I'm just saying that from the Bible itself (especially Paul's writings, which are the true origins of Christianity) a lot is said about Jesus that is demonstrably not true.
And I don't attribute the Creator to Jesus! I think you're assuming I'm Christian, which I'm not.
I agree the OT has many racist principles, but that's because it was written by racist Rabbis over a bunch of centuries. Jesus had no control over what became the NT, or what Paul taught about him. All I'm saying is that it's unfair to blame 'Jesus' (as your title does) for racism written by others.
Cheers Madthumbs, I hope I'm making sense
Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:43 am
madthumbs
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 8235 Location: Fingerlakes - NY usa
Go back to slavery:
Quote:
Genesis 16:7-9 7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
More slavery:
Quote:
Numbers 31:17-18 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
